It sounds like you had an interesting conversation (not that I would expect anything less). I’m delighted to hear Richard Dawkin’s attempts at evangelism (’malevangelism’?) are back-firing. Perhaps we should do a study group…

The liturgy thing is sad and worrying, but not suprising. A recent study in the States suggested that one of the descriptors of worship most likely to be used in a declining church was ‘reverent’. I very much doubt that irreverent churches grow, but the thought of reverence seems to put people off.

Perhaps it is just as well that at St Paul’s we sometimes struggle to live up to the second half of intent that worship be ’seemly and in good order.’